Vanmiddag kreeg ik mijn zeezendervriend Bert Alting en zijn vriendin Anita op visitie. Doel was om mijn draadloze webcam te installeren waardoor de vissen van mijn kinderen real-time live zichtbaar zouden worden op deze aardbol. Helaas is het zover nog niet. Ondanks verwoede pogingen van Anita lukte het niet de webcam in mijn weblog te hangen. Maar Anita kennende wordt dit probleem binnenkort opgelost.
He Douwe,
Wat goed dat je ook al Advanced gaat doen. Dat is al over een weekje of 6. Tot die tijd een aantal praktische avonden in R’dam.
Inderdaad Robbert, thanks for sharing and recommending this course. 4/5/6/7 augustus, nu in Amsterdam.
Ga je dan wel in hotel? En zondagmorgen weer naar de kerk?
Hotel nee, kerk ja.
Nou ja coach? Ze had toch de leiding, neem ik aan. Je beschrijft haar wel een beetje hard hoor. Maar jij hebt haar langer meegemaakt dan ik, dus je hebt meer recht van spreken.
Ga je nog een link aanleggen naar vastaanland?
Wordt aan gewerkt.
Ik begrijp dat een profesioneel persoon je gaat helpen met deze klus. Is te moeilijk voor mannen?
so you did the landmark forum.
i did as well in january this year.
it was-tenminste-a waste of money & time.
one of the most disgusting facts for me about landmark, the forum and also miss bauhofer, is the highly pressuring marketing techniques, which you have certainly experienced by yourself. if you haven’t, you must have been blinded by the “light” (better: by the dark).
you should get that landmark is definitely NOT CARING about YOU nor about ANY OTHER PARTICIPANT.
it’s all about MONEY. get it?
search the web 4 landmark, werner erhard, EST.. i’ll promise you: it’s NOT like landmark claims, that 98% percent of all participants took great value out of their courses.
in fact, it’s the complete other way round: you will have problems finding more than two out of hundreds, who will share with you positive effects.
spend your money for some that really thrills you and gives you something.
don’t expect to find a good life, happiness etc. in landmark.
groetjes van duitsland,
dag
8)
Thanks very much for your comments. The fact that you do not use your own name, first of all speaks fot itself. I fully agree that the marketing approach of Landmark is more than annoying, a mix of Jehova witnesses and Telsell ladies. But still I learned a lot about myself during the Landmark Forum and practicing some tools is really working. I also fully agree with your recommandation not to expect to find a good life, happiness etc. in Landmark. This can only be found if you really believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God who died for our sins. See also:
http://opwekking.in-actie.nl/Film/Come.htm
Take care and once again thanks for visiting and reacting.
Dag dag,
What’s your point? You cpould have retrieved yourself halfway from the course without paying anything? Are you sure you did not get anything out of the Forum? Did you take it in Frankfurt or Berlin? LM is not for helping of happyness in the first place. It learns you to help yourself and find your real Self. I tooke the cuuriculum for Living and got a lot from it. Both private as well in my work. The marketing approach is typically America. we Dutch do not like this. But mouth to mouth is know very well al the best Commercials. Do you believe al the crap on internet. I prefer to reply on the people I know and respect.
Robbert
Is LM expensive?
If you compare it to other courses in the area of personel developement it is very cheap (compare Avatar, Nieuwe Dimensies, NLP, Schouten & Nelissen, de Baak). Moreover the contents is much better. The have a golden technology in hands thanks to Werner Erhard.
And they do not care about your Ego or your false self. Everybody should not care about that I believe.
However Landmark is an Education Company, not a community to stay in I recommend. Your real community is your own or the whole world. I participated roughly one year (2001/2002) and I am still grateful for what I got from them!
regards
Robbert
Gentlemen, I found a rather scientific , and hense factual site on landmark, with pro-’s and cons. So it’s good, but not extremely exciting..
http://www.satori.org/madsax/landmark.htm
Het zit je wel hoog!
jazeker!!
Dan kun je je beter richten op iemand die LM niet heeft gedaan dan iemand die al uit ervaring spreekt blijkbaar. Lijkt mij.
dat is ook wel zo. Ik zal morgen even doorzoeken. Ik geloof dat ik wel wat heb.
douwe dijkstra, you wrote:
<<Thanks very much for your comments. The fact that you do not use your own name, first of all speaks fot itself.>>
first of all, douwe, “dag” is in fact my real name.
haven’t you learned at landmark, that you shouldn’t come from expectations?
<<I fully agree that the marketing approach of Landmark is more than annoying, a mix of Jehova witnesses and Telsell ladies.>>
f*ckin’ right.
and what i really still do not get, that the participants, the zealots, do not get, how landmark is using them for their own benefits.
f.e. the assisting programm. no one is paid any money, not even daily allowances (money for gas(car), food, whatever).
i’ve seen people (assisting ones) sitting there in the office like zombies, dialing their fingers wound to generate more clients, MORE MONEY for the company.
<<But still I learned a lot about myself during the Landmark Forum and practicing some tools is really working.>>
well, i don’t wanna claim that everything landmark claims, is sh*t.
i wanna make clear my point of view, that i think, that very much of landmarkeducation’s content, is a mixture from a lot already known philosophy etc.
i think it’s ridiculous and absurd, that they mix it up, add their subtle marketing technique and claim the whole shit as their “technology”.
ontzettend ludicrous!
<<I also fully agree with your recommandation not to expect to find a good life, happiness etc. in Landmark. This can only be found if you really believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God who died for our sins. See also:
http://opwekking.in-actie.nl/Film/Come.htm>>
i respect your opinion.
<<Take care and once again thanks for visiting and reacting>>
take care. too. thanks in return for your comments.
robbert, you wrote.
<<What’s your point?>>
see my reply to douwe: dag :: 11 augustus 2005 11:54 ::
<<You cpould have retrieved yourself halfway from the course without paying anything?>>
pardon? i don’t get what you’re trying to say.
<<Are you sure you did not get anything out of the Forum? Did you take it in Frankfurt or Berlin?>>
guess what: i took it in amsterdam. the whole show with miss bauhofer in front of the audience.
<<LM is not for helping of happyness in the first place. It learns you to help yourself and find your real Self.>>
kom op, man.. LM can help one to find him/herself?
only YOU can help yourself and find yourself.
sure,- we all are here to learn (i saw that you love hermann hesse. i do as well. esp. “demian”) and we all need inspiration to grow. anything we can find.
and it’s possible to pick out some things from the forum (some certain ideas which are already know and are not unique by landmark), etc.
but i think the company is degenerated in itself, not at least by the fact of it’s base (werner erhard, est).
and for a lot of people (remember: i’ve been there and saw it) it can be very very dangerous and unhealthy. and landmark cares a shit about it and them. why? because they can generate such a lot of money!
<<I tooke the cuuriculum for Living and got a lot from it. Both private as well in my work. The marketing approach is typically America. we Dutch do not like this. But mouth to mouth is know very well al the best Commercials.>>
well,- congrats.
<<Do you believe al the crap on internet. I prefer to reply on the people I know and respect.>>
well, robbert, you’ve got no idea, how often i’ve heard that stat.
and: i do NOT believe ALL stuff i read on the internet or elsewhere.
AND: it’s obvious what it’s all about.
you landmark guys (if i may say so) have already this simple argument: “everything on the internet is crap”.
is your own “crap” on the internet also crap? do you want your stats and opinions to be reviewed as crap?
how can you be so NOT BEING INTEGER to blow away other peoples opinions, feelings and experiences?
i am missing your respect.
and thats the ridiculous and disgusting point about landmark:
they illuse you love, integrity, freedom, etc.
get it: it’s a bluff!
even you obviously haven’t any respect for other people.
<<Robbert>>
dag
Dag Dag,
Als je een beetje kan rekenen dan kan je weten dat de eigenaars van LEC (ca. 70 LF Leaders) een redelijk salaris hebben , maar veel meer elders kunnen verdienen. Denk aan kosten van dure gebouwen, vliegreizen etc. LEC heeft een financiele strop gehad op 11-9-2001 toen het het Wordl Trade Center instorte. Zij hadden daar een verdieping die nu nog afbetaald moet worden. Verder worden de kursussen in “armere” landen gesubsidieerd door Europa en U.S.
Ik heb zelf ook ge-assisteerd. Veel van geleerd moet ik eerlijk zeggen. het is niet zomaar vrijwilligers werk. je krijgt er veel voor terug maar niet in financiele zin.
Ik denk dat de theorie van LM een synthese is van diverse wetenschap, geloven etc. Heel knap gedaan vind ik het nu na al die jaren. In de Advanced Course blijkt wel dat het niet zomaar een lappendeken van human technology is.
Maar dank voor je eerlijke reactie hoor!
hoi obed…
zeker weten kan ik rekenen.
en: ik heb gehoord over de 11/9th en dat landmark daar een locatie hefd gehaad.
en: wat je zegt overtuigd mij nog niet.
there are millions of people around the world who obviously have taken tenminste the forum.
alz jij en beetje kunt rekenen, dann zie je toch well, that there must be a lot of money for the company.
don’t get me wrong. sure i respect your arguments. and: they are the same i heard from landmark-people. very simple and unspecific.
zo,- mij dutch is niet zo perfect,- zo ik snap niet, wat je bedullt met
“lappendeken”.
anyway,- groetjes naar nederland. 😉
Hi Dag,
Sorry for not directly assessing your name being Dag. The same name as a fomous Scandinavian skater of the past.
I fully agree that they will certainly make a lot of money (for which I am the last to blame them, I do the same) but most of it will go -as always- to the top-management.
On the other hand everyone is free to enroll in these LM courses and I still see most of the people doing the Forum also taking the next courses. So they do not judge it as being wasted.
For myself, as I said, I learned a lot, but dislike their marketing approach and dislike that everybody is (or wants to) phoning you, msn with you, sms with you, skype (voip) with you, conference call with you etc. Even when you are in the Le Clerc Supermarket in Bordeaux.
Kind regards, Douwe
hi douwe…
why is that so, that everyone wants to contact anyone anytime everywhere??!
what’s your idea?
kind regards,
dag
Dag Dag,
Lappendeken in dutch means something like a bag of tricks in English (something which is nog vey consistent). A synthesis is something new and consistent although is uses know element. Sorry for using these words I’m used to engineering language.
hi Douwe,
I also like to know why the want to contact you everywhere. I seems to me you have more attraction power than I had in the past…
😉
robbert, you wrote:
<<Nou ja coach? Ze had toch de leiding, neem ik aan. Je beschrijft haar wel een beetje hard hoor.>>
she is hard! hard to the bone. (as i wrote, she was the leader in the forum i did in january this year).
hoi obed,
dankjewel.
i got it.
😀
Hi Dag,
I do agree. Ria is (or at least behaves) as hard as nails. She “burned down” participants to the ground many times, but I think that is all in the game. When you go to the mike you must be prepared for that and also many times the truth is difficult to accept. Sometimes she said plain things to people and I was more or less glad for them that they didn’t really understood what she said and meant.
And why are people contacting eachother. We are in the middle of the “Forum in Action”, the follow-up of the LM Forum which is 10 Tuesday-evenings in July, August and September.Sometimes you can not attend because you are on holiday (which in my view is rather normal this period of the year, where LM people who are transformed think that you can easily plan your vacation around these evenings, quod non). So when you miss one evening the Forum leader and his followers want to update you and you are contacted for a conversation, were I have the attitude please do not bother me, I will show up the next time again and continue from there. Furthermore they want to interest me for the assistence programme but I want to spend my time voluntairing for other organisations.
You guys know Ria better than I do. My LMF leader was Johnny Tan. Great guy! But as far as I know Ria you can not enroll her in your not being yourself , your act so to say. So I believe she is rather straight in that respect , which can be scarry. But I know quite some people who are thankful to her being that way.
I do not have the feeling that I say the opposite.
what you think about that?
http://www.ctyme.com/bwash/bwash.htm#o
Six Conversion Techniques
Cults and human-potential organizations are always looking for new converts. To attain them, they must also create a brain-phase. And they often need to do it within a short space of time–a weekend, or maybe even a day. The following are the six primary techniques used to generate the conversion.
Isolation Intimidation, Deprivation and Indoctrination
The meeting or training takes place in an area where participants are cut off from the outside world. This may be any place: a private home, a remote or rural setting, or even a hotel ballroom where the participants are allowed only limited bathroom usage. In human-potential trainings, the controllers will give a lengthy talk about the importance of “keeping agreements” in life. The participants are told that if they don’t keep agreements, their life will never work. It’s a good idea to keep agreements, but the controllers are subverting a positive human value for selfish purposes. The participants vow to themselves and their trainer that they will keep their agreements. Anyone who does not will be intimidated into agreement or forced to leave. The next step is to agree to complete training, thus assuring a high percentage of conversions for the organizations.
They will usually have to agree not to take drugs, smoke, and sometimes not to eat…or they are given such short meal breaks that it creates tension. The real reason for the agreements is to alter internal chemistry, which generates anxiety and hopefully causes at least a slight malfunction of the nervous system, which in turn increases the conversion potential.
The “Sell It By Zealot” Technique.
Before the gathering is complete, the agreements will be used to ensure that the new converts go out and find new participants. They are intimidated into agreeing to do so before they leave. Since the importance of keeping agreements is so high on their priority list, the converts will twist the arms of everyone they know, attempting to talk them into attending a free introductory session offered at a future date by the organization. The new converts are zealots. In fact, the inside term for merchandising the largest and most successful human-potential training is, “sell it by zealot!”
At least a million people are graduates and a good percentage have been left with a mental activation button that assures their future loyalty and assistance if the guru figure or organization calls. Think about the potential political implications of hundreds of thousands of zealots programmed to campaign for their guru.
Be wary of an organization of this type that offers follow-up sessions after the seminar. Follow-up sessions might be weekly meetings or inexpensive seminars given on a regular basis which the organization will attempt to talk you into taking–or any regularly scheduled event used to maintain control. As the early Christian revivalists found, long-term control is dependent upon a good follow-up system.
Wearing Down Resistance
Alright. Now, let’s look at the second tip-off that indicates conversion tactics are being used. A schedule is maintained that causes physical and mental fatigue. This is primarily accomplished by long hours in which the participants are given no opportunity for relaxation or reflection.
Increasing Tension
The third tip-off: techniques used to increase the tension in the room or environment.
Introducing Uncertainty About Identity
Number four: Uncertainty. I could spend hours relating various techniques to increase tension and generate uncertainty. Basically, the participants are concerned about being “put on the spot” or encountered by the trainers, guilt feelings are played upon, participants are tempted to verbally relate their innermost secrets to the other participants or forced to take part in activities that emphasize removing their masks. One of the most successful human-potential seminars forces the participants to stand on a stage in front of the entire audience while being verbally attacked by the trainers. A public opinion poll, conducted a few years ago, showed that the number one most-fearful situation an individual could encounter is to speak to an audience. It ranked above window washing outside the 85th floor of an office building.
So you can imagine the fear and tension this situation generates within the participants. Many faint, but most cope with the stress by mentally going away. They literally go into an alpha state, which automatically makes them many times as suggestible as they normally are. And another loop of the downward spiral into conversion is successfully effected.
Jargon
The fifth clue that conversion tactics are being used is the introduction of jargon–new terms that have meaning only to the “insiders” who participate. Vicious language is also frequently used, purposely, to make participants uncomfortable.
Lack of Humor: No Release, No Resistance
The final tip-off is that there is no humor in the communications…at least until the participants are converted. Then, merry-making and humor are highly desirable as symbols of the new joy the participants have supposedly “found.”
greetz, d.
Dag,
What is it you want to achieve with all this?
I will enjoy todays good weather by working in my garden. 😉
obed,
not really something in particular.
8)
That sounds like an honest anwswer.
How did you came across this site?
Wisten jullie dat Ria vorig jaar in de show bij Paul de Leeuw is geweest?
Nee, vertel
Nou dat verhaal ken ik ook wel hoewel ik de uitzending (pappa paul?) niet gezien heb. Ze is daar 10 minuten geweest om uit te leggen wat Landmark is. Paul heeft indertijd voor Ria Forum Leider werd de A.C. gedaan. Hij is daar zeer positief over een heeft Ria dus wat reclame zendtijd gegeven. Maar ga er maar eens aan staan om in 10 minuten uit te leggen wat het is…
Ze kwam niet zo goed uit de verf als live. Ze hadden beter Johny tan kunnne vragen. Heeft meer humor en is dus geschikter voor zoiets. Zie link met Foto van Tan
Excuse, verkeerde link…
Deze klopt wel
http://www.ilovepossibility.info/image/sin04/05_c_246.jpg
hoi obed, you wrote:
“That sounds like an honest anwswer.
How did you came across this site?”
by researchin’ the web for landmark…
oops.. jammer,- de link klopt niet.
try once more…
sounds interesting..
empty en niet emphty….
of empathy?
Inderdaad empty. bedankt voor de correctie. Ik pas het even aan en voeg tevens een andere stelling toe.
empty empathy, i would say.
😀
8)
😉
hey folks…
ik zoal jullie noog het volgende laaten weten:
ik heb een hele goede vriendin (zoals jullie dutch), en zij is heel bezig met landmark en voor haar werkt het ontzettend goed.
zo, besides my critic op/an landmark, ik respecteer ‘tuurlijk iedereen, die iets uit landmark uithaalt of darmee iets doed of wat dan ook. en haar respecteer ik very much.
😉
Tonight again Forum in Action, this time with Ria. I’m off to Rotterdam in 15 minutes.
Dag,
Nice to hear this from you! To my experience the Advanced Course is much more impressive and less individual than the Forum. But Landmark is only related to cognitiev breakthroughs. On the emotional level or body and feelling haptonomy works better (as I have noticed with my wife). You might try this
Hi dag, How come you never give a reaction on my site?
hoi obed…
interesting point (emotional level).
in my opinion it’s altijd het best, om iets “ganzheitliches” te doen.
(don’t know dutch or english translation 4 “ganzheitlich”, but i hope you’ll get me.)
will react on your site in the not too distant future…
fijne dag (goed doubeltje, eh?)
😉
hoi folks..
this is my final visit at your site.
i’ve decided to stop any action being busy with any landmark-stuff.
i’m definitely thru with that subject.
thanx 4 nice conversation.
if i hurt somebody’s feelings,- i’d like to offer my excuse.
all the best to ev’ryone.
dag
😉
My site is much more than Landmark. Just as life is much more than Landmark.
Hi Dag,
Agree with Douwe, so is my site. Glad to hear that you finalised discussions w.r.t. Landmark. I must say (must of the time) I enjoyed it. You did not hurt my feelings. I hope I did not hurt you as well. In case of I apoligize
ok, douwe en robbie. ik snap het.
so i will come from time to time to have a look at your sites.
ik wens jullie all the best….
tot zoe.. doei…
the d.
Kan je mij die kursus aanraden?
En waarom?
Ik hoorde dat Robbert hem ook gedaan heeft.
Collega van
Ik kan je de cursus zeker aanbevelen Deirdre. Robbert had hem mij aangeraden. Je kunt veel over jezelf leren waar je in de toekomst je voordeel mee kunt doen. Zie ook mijn opmerkingen hierboven.